Beyond the product: a conversation with John Cutler
An insightful discussion with John Cutler on how organizations can shift their focus to better meet customer needs.
In this webinar, TheyDo co-founder and CEO, Jochem van der Veer sits down with PM evangelist, John Cutler to explore the intricacies of product development, emphasizing the importance of adopting a holistic approach and prioritizing customer journeys.
Renowned for his writing and experience in product management, and having most recently amassed experience from notable companies such as Toast and Amplitude, John brings a wealth of insights into the world of product management. He takes us deep into both the successes and challenges of product development, highlighting the need for alignment across the entire organization towards key product goals, and understanding the broader context of the customer experience.
Key takeaways
Product-first vs Journey-first
John and Jochem talk about the contrast between two different ways of thinking about business strategy: a product-first mentality and a journey-first approach. John cautions against oversimplified framings like ‘blank first’ concepts that may initially provide clarity but ultimately fall short in capturing the complexity of business dynamics. He discusses the pitfalls of product-centric thinking, where companies become overly fixated on their offerings to the detriment of other essential elements.
Instead, he advocates for a nuanced understanding of customer needs, emotions, and experiences, stressing the importance of aligning the entire company around these critical aspects. By shifting focus towards a more holistic view of products within a service ecosystem, organizations can better meet customer needs.
Navigating continuous transformation
John and Jochem’s conversation also underlines the importance of continuous transformation within organizations. They touch on striking a balance between learning and shipping, effectively utilizing research insights, and aligning metrics with customer journeys.
They also dive into the role of cross-functional collaboration, measurement accuracy, and shared understanding in driving meaningful improvements in overall customer experience. They ultimately paint a picture of a dynamic and evolving landscape where companies must continuously adapt to meet the ever-changing needs and expectations of their customers.
Lead with the why, not the way
John and Jochem emphasize the importance of focusing on the outcome rather than getting caught up in labels or titles. If you truly want to shift a product-centric organization to a journey-centric one, don’t scare people away with the label ‘journey-centricity’. Instead, show how the work in the context of the journey makes sense. People will eventually look at the journey as a way to understand and prioritize, and over time, will become journey-centric.
What is covered in the webinar
View the full webinar to gain all of John’s insights. Skip around to the webinar segments that are most relevant to you by clicking on the timestamps below.
04:00 Setting the stage: the customer journey
John offers a philosophical perspective on the customer journey, defining it as any progression over time and space through a product or company ecosystem. He emphasizes the importance of direction in customer journeys, alongside the elements of time and development, acknowledging the power in being able to apply journeys across so many settings, from onboarding new team members to a country's long-term transition to clean energy.
06:00 The product-first approach
John defines product led as “using design data and technology to create sources of sustainable, differentiated growth”. He acknowledges that simplistic framings like ‘product first’ can be useful initially to kick-start thinking and orient people around an idea. However, over time, this approach can wear out its welcome as companies integrate it into their operations, potentially overlooking crucial elements like customer needs, organizational design, and internal processes. In many cases, the product-first mentality leads companies to prioritize internal processes and what they think is best, rather than focusing on the customer's needs and experiences.
John highlights how companies may get caught up in labeling everything as a product, which can lead to a loss of focus on delivering genuine value to customers. He emphasizes the importance of taking a step back to consider what a product truly is (versus mere packaging or pricing) and how this understanding relates to a company's positioning in the market and its overall strategy.
14:00 Your product is a service
Jochem and John talk about how companies are changing their views on products, now seeing them more as services and focusing on the whole customer journey. They compare companies that only offer digital products with those that offer both services and digital products, noting that digital-only companies often struggle due to complexity. They face challenges like inertia and pressure from investors, requiring ongoing adaptation and evolution.
19:07 We are shipping faster than we learn
John explains that companies are facing a dilemma: if they ship products faster than they learn, they accumulate problems for customers, leading to complexity that slows down future shipments. He suggests exploring different domains to find solutions. Companies that undergo a devops transformation can improve their shipping frequency significantly.
22:59 Research and timely shipping
John highlights the challenge of balancing research efforts with product delivery. While thorough research is essential, its value diminishes if not translated into timely product delivery.
26:00 North star metric and the ladder of engagement
John's experience in North Star workshops shows that inputs often represent major transitions in user trust and engagement levels. This emphasizes the importance of meaningful insights in driving product strategy.
28:00 Journey-based input schemes
John discusses input schemes commonly used in B2C companies, like breadth, depth, and frequency. However, he finds that these schemes lack specificity and prefers journey-based input schemes, which focus on stages of user interaction with the product.
30:00 The traditional sales funnel vs the ladder of engagement
John compares the traditional sales funnel to a ‘meat grinder’, and introduces the ladder of engagement, where customers progress through stages of success with the product (increasing trust along the way). This concept involves flipping the funnel and viewing customer interactions as steps in a journey, which can uncover performance gaps and enhance customer experience. Jochem shares an example where a company successfully implemented this approach, leading to insights into early-stage issues affecting conversion rates.